Constructing Change with Women and Technology in Project and Document Controls

Justin Fagents:

Hello, everybody. Welcome to the webinar. My name is Justin Fagents. A warm welcome to our audience and panel members. I’m the Sales Director for InEight Australia. Again, my name’s Justin Fagents. I’m standing in for our VP of Product Development, Catie Williams today as she’s unfortunately unwell. But before we get started, a few housekeeping notes. This ON24 experience that you’re in right now can be completely customized. You can move windows around, make them bigger if you want. You can drag the corner. There are engagement tools for you to interact with throughout this experience with the toolbar at the bottom of the screen. So feel free to click through and see what everything does. I’d like to point out that right below that there’s a Q&A box, so be sure to submit any questions that you have throughout the webinar and we’ll try to get to them at the end.

We do enjoy seeing your reactions and themes and topics throughout the discussion. So do use the emoji function, if you like, that is available. And lastly, don’t forget to give us feedback at the end of the survey. That’d be much appreciated. So InEight, who are we? We’re a leading digital construction management software company that empowers teams to effectively plan, manage, and deliver projects on time and within budget. Innovative solutions, leverage advanced technologies like AI and machine learning to enhance project visibility, streamline workflows, and improve decision-making. Whether you’re in engineering, construction, or infrastructure, it helps you to drive efficiency and success throughout the project life cycle. So without further ado, let’s start off introducing our esteemed panel. I’ll start off with Nicky Tahi over to you to introduce yourself please.

Nicky Tahi:

Hey, Justin. Hey, everyone. I’m Nicky Tahi. I am the Records and Document Control Manager for Energy and Utilities with Downer.

Justin Fagents:

Thanks, Nicky. Richard McCarthy.

Richard McCarthy:

Thanks, Justin. Hi, everyone. Richard McCarthy, Executive General Manager for Interflow. I look after Interflow’s business in Vic, Tas, South Australia, West Australia, Northern Territory, just the AFL states is the easiest way to remember it and coming to you based in Melbourne. Hi, everyone, nice to be here.

Justin Fagents:

Thanks, Richard and Ansonica Botha over to you. Ansonica, can you hear-

Ansonica Botha:

Hi, I’m, Ansonica… Yeah.

Justin Fagents:

There you go.

Ansonica Botha:

Hi, I’m in Ansonica Botha. I’m from Hastings in the North Island of New Zealand. I work for the Hastings District Council as the delivery manager across asset management. So that’s across three waters, transportation, parks, and property.

Justin Fagents:

Awesome, thanks, Ansonica. All right, let’s start with the questions. I might start with yourself, Nicky, and then keen to hear from Richard and Ansonica. Can you tell me a little bit about your experience and journey and what inspired you to get into the construction engineering field, please?

Nicky Tahi:

Sure. So in about 1998 I worked in a laboratory and I thought that that would be my career going forward in a pathology lab. And 12 months into that, I got a bit of exposure to document control and I did that for the next eight years with that same company that involved some internal audits of our own labs and a lot of [inaudible 00:03:24] accreditation, ISO accreditation, a really good sort of kick off to where I am now. I actually thought document control was mostly medical requirement or just in that field.

And it wasn’t until my husband decided he wanted to venture across to WA and explore the opportunities there that I sort of put the feelers out and landed myself a job with a helicopter company. It was quite short-lived ’cause I was quite homesick, but it was good to know that the skills were quite transferable. And then, so I put the feelers out again and that’s when I got into the construction gig. So that was with the Gateway upgrade in Brisbane and I haven’t left this industry since then and that was in 2007. So yeah, it’s been a really good experience just having the same set of skills but just really learning different lingoes and terminologies.

Justin Fagents:

Fantastic. Thanks, Nicky. Richard, across to you.

Richard McCarthy:

Thanks, Justin. I come from a family of engineers. Uncles, my father was an engineer, so it was always sort of in the blood if you like. And I’ve sort of run a history through a lot of industrial organizations. So as much as I studied engineering, I’ve actually worked in industrial organizations, but always with a construction element to it. And I just love the tangibility of being able to see something produced at the end. That was sort of the initial attraction for me. Over time though, I’ve just been able to have the most wonderful range of opportunities, experiences in the industry. So as much as we might call it construction engineering, I’ve run operations, I’ve run manufacturing, I’ve done mergers and acquisitions, I’ve run businesses, all that sort of stuff. So that’s what sort of kept me in here. And I think one of the things I love is the fact that you can do all that within that sort of realm of construction and engineering.

Justin Fagents:

Yeah, that’s brilliant. And Richard, often we do see that as a common theme when I’ve had some panels in the past, and it’s about what brings people into this industry and ultimately for people it’s often that they get to create something, they actually get to leave a mark and they’re actually producing something tangible, something physical that has a big impact on society as a whole. You drive past, you show your kids and your friends and I was part of that. And we as well are really fortunate to be able to be a small wheel in a big part of all of that. So yeah, I love all of those things.

Richard McCarthy::

Absolutely. I keep threatening to show my kids commemorative plaques on projects in weird and wonderful parts of Australia. They haven’t taken me up on the offer [inaudible 00:06:09].

Justin Fagents:

Sounds like a great road trip idea. Thanks, Richard, and, Ansonica, over the yourself.

Ansonica Botha:

So straight out of school I had to make a decision on sort of what direction I wanted to go with my studies and I always had an affinity for maths and science because it just sort of made sense for my brain. Looked at all the different types of engineering and settled on civil engineering. Got my qualification, started working for a council in South Africa, as you probably guessed by my accent. And me and my husband decided to move to New Zealand coming up 19 years ago. Stayed with the council theme and got a job at the Hastings District Council as a project manager. Worked as a project manager across three waters, transportation. Also, as an engineer’s rep, I’ve done seismic strengthening projects, aquatics projects, and at the moment I’ve moved more into a management role and also getting a taste of the operation side with the engineer to contract role for our three waters maintenance contract.

Justin Fagents:

Fantastic, fantastic. And it’d be great to hear as we progress through this conversation really around some of the themes of things that have changed what may have stayed the same throughout your career and really as we’re talking about women within obviously the industry, but also there’s technology and how the technology has evolved and has enabled better outcomes for organizations and women working in those fields. So looking forward to hearing about that as we get through it. All right, let’s move to the next question and I’m going to chuck this one to Richard if I may. In what ways do diverse perspectives and particularly those of women contribute to innovation and growth in the construction sector?

Richard McCarthy::

So look, start by saying, diverse perspectives are essential to what we do. I mean, when you think about it, what we’re trying to do is solve really complex problems, whether you putting together, in the work that we do, whether you’re trying to work out how you reline a sewer that’s 30 meters underground and a couple of kilometers long versus to some of the other engineering solutions that you have. So there’re really complex solutions and in order to get that, no one person has the answer. So you need those diverse perspectives. The other thing as we do those sorts of things is, we’re actually trying to solve some quite complex or navigate some quite complex team dynamics in order to do that. I think we’ve all been part of teams where everyone wants to have a say or everyone’s had the answer or something and sometimes guiding and shaping the theme is really essential.

So to do both of those, you do need diverse perspectives and you need different skill sets. And I think one of the things I’ve found through my career, and certainly before I got to Interflow was it was particularly having women in the team were able to help us navigate better some of the team dynamics. And it was just from my perspective, male female brains wired slightly differently in terms of where we naturally go. At Interflow, we’ve actually taught all our 600 people around how to navigate those team dynamics together. So it is something that can be taught, but I think initially before you get to that sort of industry or company-wide approach, you need those different perspectives just for the technical aspects but also the team dynamic aspects.

Justin Fagents:

Yeah, really good point. And, Nicky, do you have anything and, Ansonica, to sort of add to that in that theme around what you may have seen around the sector, the diversification, innovation that may have come through different perspectives, and certainly I’ve got an example that I can jump to as well of something I’ve seen within Downer, actually, previously, Nicky, but do you have anything that you wanted to add there?

Nicky Tahi:

I think just found from my experience, just working on numerous major projects, it’s been really great watching the young female engineers come up through the ranks. We obviously deal with everybody, male, female, we service the whole project. But I think it’s just been a really good sort of, just a really good initiative. Oh, maybe it’s not even an initiative, it’s just naturally happened in that women are more interested in the male dominated roles, I suppose is basic way of putting it.

Justin Fagents:

Yep. Yeah, absolutely. And we had an example, actually, it was within Downer and we had a panel session a few years ago talking about how the dynamics of women that were wanting to return to work after having children and wanting to be able to job share and wanting to get into a role like a document controller and being able to work together collaboratively but also have that balance of what was happening in their personal lives. But they actually really wanted to do something they contributed to, you know, major and mega projects throughout Australia and organizations like Downer were supportive of being able to then provide that environment where there was a tight-knit group who looked out for each other, supported each other, and really shared the job function on a part-time basis rather than it being something that traditionally may not have been available.

And that really came off the back of post-COVID and that change in workforce dynamics and how people could actually do some remote working, working from the office or work from anywhere. So again, I think we’ve sort of seen some dynamics just by that event also, which forced I think organizations to rethink about how they can maximize potential within the workforce and giving people that flexibility of working hours and where they work from. So yeah, some awesome examples that have come out of that. For me, let’s jump into maybe talking a bit-

Ansonica Botha:

While you were-

Justin Fagents:

Oh, go ahead. Sorry, Ansonica.

Ansonica Botha:

… talking, Justin. It made me think of something that happened to me about women and having kids and how you stay in, all people wanting to get back into work. And I remember I just started working at this council and I got pregnant with my twins and there was someone, they were organizing a training session and someone came to me and said, “Oh, you don’t have to come to that because you are going to have your babies and then we won’t see you again.” And I was like, “What are you talking about?” And I did actually come back and council did support me through my maternity leave and accommodating that time for my kids, especially when they were younger. And here I am 17 years later still contributing to council. So I have noticed a shift in their appreciation and support of mothers in the industry and within our council. And it’s so important because that is a season in your life.

Justin Fagents:

Yes.

Ansonica Botha:

People still have value during that season and also if you support them in the working environment.

Justin Fagents:

Absolutely. It’s an amazing example. Thank you for sharing that. And I think that as people, as women do go on maternity leave, it doesn’t mean that they’ve lost their skills, their abilities, et cetera. They’re focusing on their child at that point in time, but still have the desire and the drive to want to get back into the workforce when the time is appropriate. Organizations like the council’s recognizing that and embracing that, bringing you back in it means also that they’re not losing great talent. And I think the retention of talent is a huge challenge within the construction sector and many organizations talk about how do they keep people, well, I think that long-term view and example of how they can support people through maternity leave and then embracing that to have them come back and then you really want to go back, you feel a connection to that organization that they’ve supported you.

And so yeah, all organizations should really look at how they support through that. And I agree with you, I think that organizations are getting better at that and as we go through this conversation, let’s explore that a little bit more around what organizations like Interflow as an example, are doing to be able to support diversity in the workplace and things and initiatives such as maternity leave and then coming back to work and how do you support people while they’re on maternity leave and bringing people in for those roles. So some really great topics already coming out of this, it’s awesome. So let’s get-

Richard McCarthy::

Really interesting you say that-

Justin Fagents:

… into the technology. Sorry Richard, go on.

Richard McCarthy::

I was just going to add to Ansonica’s example as well because there’s a couple of things that we’re doing. We’re now onto our third, so we have some, not yet enough, but we have some females in our field workforce and we’ve now got our third one who is pregnant and looking and what we’ve been able to do is create and move them into different roles. That means that in that sort of period just before their child is due, that they’re sort of in something that’s not as physically demanding as being out in the field, but it’s also opened up career pathways. So our very first one and a lady called Tia, a couple of years ago is now heading towards a project coordinator role having started working within one of our field crews, basically laying water mains out on site and it takes that sort of willingness to look at things differently and then go, “Hey, how might we help Tia?”

But also what other potential does Tia have in what she’s doing? What are her aspirations? How do we, rather than say, “That doesn’t fit with what we’ve got at the moment,” going, “How might we make this work?” And now that we’ve done it a few times, certainly with Tia it was something we had to work through. Now we’re up to a lady called Prudence who’s coming to do the same sort of thing and it’s becoming just part of our rhythms now, everyone’s going, “Okay, yeah, what will we do with the next one,” but it’s trying those things but it also takes that back to that question of diversity of perspective to go, “Why not? Let’s give this a go.”

Justin Fagents:

Yeah, I really love that whole attitude of why not? Why not give it a go? And if you don’t give it a go, you will never know of course. And having the courage to do that as an organization and again when people are then applying to work safe Interflow and graduating and coming into the workforce, again, what separates you as an employer from everybody else, what is it that you would then be offering not just from a remuneration perspective, but an opportunity to keep people and develop and as they go through their career, have that support mechanism in place for when a lot of people go through a change in their lifestyle because of children coming in, which is just one example of something that can happen in the workforce for a woman, but then making sure that you’ve got something in place like that, really make sure that that long-term view is maintained of why I should stay and why should I join you. That was an awesome example, thank you.

So, Nicky, Ansonica, let’s talk about technology a little bit and you’ve both given us great backstory of your history and where you started in terms of document control and project controls. How has technology changed the role of document controllers and project controllers in the construction industry really over the past decade or even over your career? I’ll throw it to both of you, whoever wants to go first, but how have you seen that change happen?

Nicky Tahi:

I’ll jump in. So from a document control perspective, I mean, clearly we’ve gone from having to use Excel registers for managing document reviews or old checkrooms, you’d have a little old checkroom on a side office compound and you’d have your colored pens and so forth and you’d put your documents in there for seven days and then you’d pull your review documents out and you’d scan them and send them. Now, obviously with NA, especially in the doc space, we can use our workflows. Obviously, we can use our packages for managing our contractor documents. Last major project that I personally worked on, we had 169 subcontracts.

Justin Fagents:

Wow.

Nicky Tahi:

So that was made really easy. We were using the classic version too back then. And I think now to sort of fast-forward where we are today, we’re currently looking at how we can really strengthen our project controls and as part of that I’ve been testing out the submittals module because I think it’s probably we can all agree that there’s not a lot of businesses in my experience that manage vendor data very well. It’s typically maybe still a spreadsheet. So just in that testing of the submittals module, I’ve been fortunate enough to work with the product owner and be able to provide feedback to the product owner with Nicole Tudor. So really just having access to that and providing feedback and maybe some ideas from improvement, it’s really come a long way and it can only get better from here as well.

Justin Fagents:

Absolutely, you’re right. Some amazing great examples around how it’s continued to evolve and the platform it does evolve in terms of InEight document, having that reporting available to you at your fingertips. And, Ansonica, over to you, what are you thinking?

Ansonica Botha:

Thinking over the 20, 25 years I’ve been in the industry moving more to digital ways of doing things from paper-based to having GIE systems where you’ve got your information centralized, electronic document systems, emails taking over from faxes and Excel and those sorts of things improve the speed at which you could do your own personal analysis of things and the availability of information. But with things like Teams and those sorts of more collaborative spaces for document sharing, open up a whole new world in terms of how multifaceted company entity teams work together on a simultaneous document.

Some of the 3D modeling things we’ve got now where you can have different designers, seeing where the clashes are going to be has made such a huge difference. I guess the thing we need to watch for is this pace of that and the impact that has on people. Yes, it’s got a huge amount of benefits but you still need that time to think. You need time to consider how things are going. The expectations around turnaround times just keeps going up. So I think we need to keep an eye on that, but it’s a whole new world of possibilities. Our council’s just embarking on our journey with InEight, but I’m very excited to see sort of how that’s going to pan out. But there’s so many like 3D surveying, all those sorts of things, things that would’ve taken months to do we do in an hour. It’s crazy.

Justin Fagents:

Yeah, it is. And the efficiency gains, really, solutions like the platform of InEight have been able to provide the information at your fingertips and rich reporting, being able to understand in realtime the performance of a project, is it on time, is it on budget? Governance, risk and compliance, having all of the information from say a subcontractor, making sure that that’s available and a capture maybe till you’re upstream owner of the asset that you’re building to make sure that everything’s communicated on time and if things are off schedule in terms of them complying with information that you’ve sent across to them, having that single source of truth more and more has become more important.

And certainly where we see where you’re working in major and mega projects, it becomes more and more vital throughout the last five to 10 years. Certainly from the construction industry perspective, organizations which are really having a lot of pain due to the increased cost of materials and labor needing to have information to hand in realtime as to how is the project performing, what adjustments need to be made, can it be done in quick time, can informed decisions occur at the leadership level, all as it’s being fed in from this information from the team is really where in a time that’s never existed before and as you said, it’s only going to get better.

And certainly with machine learning and AI coming in to be able to give again more informed decisions, the more data available to projects that you may have worked on, to be giving you more predictive outlooks of where things are coming, it’s a very exciting time. Ultimately where we see the benefit is where all of that information is ultimately collected together and we see a client’s being able to get the most out of it that way, having that single pane of glass. So a lot of stuff in terms of the technology and thank you for sharing those examples and really where it’s changed over the years from a technology perspective. And, Richard, maybe you could also share in your journey throughout the construction industry, where have you seen technology doesn’t have to just be sort of an InEight technology but the way we’ve seen technology really impact the way that you’ve worked personally and organizational benefit and maybe you’ve seen challenges that technology has also introduced that [inaudible 00:24:35].

Richard McCarthy:

Firstly, Ansonica, I was laughing as you were talking about going from fax to email and everything like that. I remember I started when there was inter-office memos that were delivered round as well. So yeah, it’s amazing the pace over a short career, how much has changed. Probably the biggest one I’ve seen and it was brought about because of COVID and stuff like that was the use of platforms like we’re using today. And so what it did is it really disrupted a number of things. It really helped with that notion of collaboration when we needed to rather than always having to be physically in the same space. But at the same time it’s also opened up that notion about what is best done online together versus, “Hey, there are things that you miss by not always being physically together.” So it helped I think bring some awareness to what’s the right technology helped bring awareness to when might it help, when might it hinder.

Yeah. Nicky, Ansonica, you both spoke about the speed of which things that we used to do that took a long time are now being done in much faster time. And I think one of the things we’ve got to keep watching for in this is, the critical path now moves from how you gather information to what decisions you make with it. So therefore, how do you make sure that you don’t try and run too fast that way and therefore make clumsy decisions. We’ve got some regular processes that we use at Interflow. As we learned how to collect that information, we were still trying to run them on one particular one I can think of, we were trying to run it on a weekly rhythm and we actually found that just wasn’t fast enough for the decision making. So we’ve actually dropped that back to a fortnightly rhythm, which means we’re getting better quality decisions and we’re actually moving faster than we ever were before.

So I think that trade-off between the ability to gather and transmit information really quickly balanced with making decisions or getting insights and making decisions I think is something we’ve got to keep watching for.

Justin Fagents:

That’s a really interesting point there, Richard, and I hadn’t really considered it is that sometimes you can be clouded by the information that may be presented to you if you don’t have a long enough time to actually evaluate that over a period of time, to actually say what is that information truly telling us? What do we need to actually respond to with the information that’s available? Even though it’s at our fingertips, it’s a really great point. So let’s jump to women in construction if we can and talking about maybe some of the challenges and what challenges or broadly do women potentially face in their roles as document controllers and project controllers and is there a way that technology can assist in that instance or is it something at an organizational level and personal level that needs to be addressed. Chuck that one out to the team and who wants to take that one first?

Nicky Tahi:

I think it’s going to be me.

Justin Fagents:

Thanks, Nicky.

Nicky Tahi:

I think just some of the challenges, and I suppose I just want to preface this with, any sort of challenging situation I’m in, I don’t always preface my thoughts with, “Oh this is gender.” Like, it could be a challenging conversation around a process or a system or a decision that’s being made. So I don’t sort of bog myself down in that, but some of the things that I can definitely say examples such as not smiling. We may be, I have a poker face, I’m generally pretty expressive with my face, but if I’m concentrating it’s not a very exciting face. Yet, people will assume that you are in a mood or there’s just something bugging you. And when I say people, it’s typically the male of the species, so they’ll suggest that we smile or chipper up.

But I got to the stage on one project where I taught myself to bite the inside of my cheek, so it looked like I was doing a bit of a semi-smile ’cause it made everybody else comfortable. But typically I’m smiling a lot, but it’s just those little tiny moments where you just, sort of, if there was a construction director, I always like to think back to a project in Downer that I was on and it was a troublesome project and I remember our construction director, he came in and everybody shivered in their boots. He was very highly respected, but the project was in trouble, yet he didn’t mince words. He definitely didn’t mince words and everybody admired him for it. However, if the roles were reversed or the genders were reversed, we would not be admired in the same way. So it would be a different judgment. So just little things like that that can really weigh you down when you just want to focus on the topic or the issue.

Justin Fagents:

Okay. That’s interesting and maybe we can, as we progress through the conversation, talk about as careers develop and move into leadership roles, maybe some experiences and some advice as well for people who are starting their careers off in construction as women, is there a glass ceiling or is there advice or is there things that they could do differently or should or shouldn’t have to? So we could explore that a little bit because as you said, a lot of people with a lot of respect within the leadership function, is that different or perceived to be different if it’s a man or if it’s a woman? So maybe we can talk a little bit about that as we progress this conversation. Ansonica, did you have something as well that you wanted to-

Ansonica Botha:

Yeah. In my own experience and also with talking with other women, and I know everyone’s different in these differences between men as well, is a more general trend in women to not go for the big scary opportunity, not to say yes, feeling like we don’t have enough experience or I don’t know exactly how to do that. Our tendency is to want to know how to do something before we go for it. Where I feel like men are more likely to say, “Yeah, I think I can do that, I’ll just go for it.” And they go. So I think there’s a definite thing that women hold ourselves back and don’t back ourselves to learn as we go more.

Nicky Tahi:

Can I just jump in on that and be, really, like… So Sophie reached out to me and asked me to participate in this today. It took me a week to decide purely because it’s not my thing. I would rather pull out my toenails if I’m honest. But I thought about setting an example for future women in construction and those women being my granddaughters. I have a seventeen-year-old granddaughter who’s about to head off into her first FIFO role and I have the second-oldest granddaughter who’s just started high school. So I was mulling over whether to do this because I was uncomfortable yet they were overhearing the conversation so I knew I needed to set this example and get uncomfortable for them. So yeah, just off the back of what you were saying, Ansonica, we do hold ourselves back and we probably overthink it and get in our own heads too much, instead of just diving in and doing it.

Ansonica Botha:

I had a similar opportunity when I was asked to participate in this webinar and I kind of did the opposite to you, Nicky, I said, “Well, I’m just going to say yes before I can think about this too much and then I’m in and I’ve got to do it.”

Justin Fagents:

Yeah. Just agree to it and worry about it later.

Nicky Tahi:

There you go.

Ansonica Botha:

I was like, “If I say yes, I’m committed, then I have to do it,” because I’ve never done something like this before. And even then I was sort of doubting sort of in my experience in little Hastings, “What do I bring to the conversation?” And even just sharing my doubt with some of the people in my life, they showed me, well, even this thing you think isn’t important, that’s actually important. That is a good thing to share with people. And even because I am more of an introvert, just showing that quieter people has a space and there’s a space for those types of personalities in our industry is important to share my perspective at something like our webinar today.

Justin Fagents:

Absolutely. I think as people are watching this and will listen to the recordings later on et cetera, the examples of what you’re putting forward are relatable, all of them. And again, as people are coming up, starting out their career, they’re looking for that guidance. And in fact, last year I was fortunate enough to host a panel with the University of Melbourne around future construction careers and we had many students that came in to listen to a live panel and we had one of the panelists was Stephanie Graham, who’s the MD, Managing Director of construction for Lendlease. And you reminded me, Nicky actually about, she said the same thing that, “Men have a tendency to kind of jump in and to apply for roles which they’re wildly unqualified for but they just go for it.” And in her experience, women hadn’t.

And she’s like, “No, go for it. If you don’t push yourself, if you don’t really put yourself out there and try, you’ll actually not get there and you’ll pigeon hole yourself below what your actual potential is.” The reality is all of us need to push ourselves when we’re going for new roles and growth into leadership and we’re not qualified yet. But if you’ve got a great organization that can help support you through that growth and can train you and believe in you, but it does, as you said, it starts with your attitude, you agree to it, you put yourself out there. So some really awesome examples and some wisdom coming up. So thank you for sharing those. Richard, did you have anything on that particular subject before we move on to the next bit?

Richard McCarthy:

Two things. Number one, Nicky, and, Ansonica, I hear you, around that sometimes it’s just do it and worry about the consequences later on or learn as you go and enjoy the process or [inaudible 00:35:32], so it’s a very… Yeah, I’m with you on that. I think part of it, our role as leaders in these sort of organizations is a couple of things we want to do. One is, to know our people well enough that we understand their aspirations, their capability, but also we’ve built the environment where you can have those discussions that might say, “Hey, Richard, I know you really want to go for this job. Here’s the things I think you’ll absolutely, you know, you’ve got it in hand. Versus here are the things where, hey, you’re going to need some help or development along the way as you do it.” And so how do we create that environment where those things that we typically just sit internally with is, we can actually talk to someone, talk with someone about.

The second thing that certainly we do at Interflow, and it was at my previous organization as well, is we talk about the concept of ready enough for a role. No one ever comes into a role knowing exactly what to do and quite honestly, if they know exactly what to do, the role’s probably, we’re not going to get someone’s full potential out of it. So how do we get this notion of ready enough which is around that, hey, we’ve got the, you know, someone’s ready enough to start this, how do we then build the support around them so that they will get better and better as they progress through the role.

It’s also a great way of weeding out the ones who might come in with all the bluff and bluster but actually are not ready enough typically for that bluff and bluster as well. So that thing about creating trust in the organization so that you’ve got that, you can have those discussions as you want to go for stuff. But also the concept of ready enough, don’t wait for the perfect candidate to get in there. Get the right person with the right attitude in there and then build the support around them to help them with their development needs.

Justin Fagents:

That’s awesome, Richard. I like that concept of ready enough because nobody’s the complete package and if they’re applying for a role which they could do in their sleep, well, actually they’re not going to be motivated in the long term are they? So most people are looking for a challenge of growth opportunity. So I really like that. And attitude certainly is the key. Attitude and aptitude and then skills, as you said will come later as you as an employer have a responsibility to effectively train them and develop them as individuals. Yeah, I love that. As we move forward, how can men in the workplace help support women through potentially some of the double standards on unconscious bias and even from a leadership perspective, what could be done as well? I’ll chuck that to the team.

Richard McCarthy:

Yeah, first thing is recognize that it’s there. You might not want to admit it or something like that, but it is there and it’s always there and I see it as there is nothing inherently wrong with there being a bias somewhere, but there is something inherently wrong if you choose to do nothing about it. So it’s just that sort of recognize that it’s there and then I think the thing is then saying, “So how do you break down what that bias is actually about?” And certainly a very, very good coach that I worked with a number of years ago, she used to talk about the three Cs model. Someone will complain about something, underneath that complaint is a concern. Underneath that concern is care. And so when we see a bias, what is it? The bias actually isn’t the issue, there’s something else under there and how do we get to the root of that to help individual shift from the bias?

And then what do we need to do as an organization just to systematically remove all those biases, so it can be as, stuffing around what are some of the policies that we’ve got in place? What are the [inaudible 00:39:08]? Are we ensuring that we are paying the same role, the same amount? Type of stuff. Rather than we’re allowing bias to creep in through things like we’ll call it experience or something like that, but really it just manifests as gender bias or something like that. So I think be aware of it, work out how to get to the root of what the issue is, but also create the environment where you’re constantly calling it out.

Justin Fagents:

Yes, fantastic. Nicky, Ansonica, did you have anything to share in your experience around that?

Nicky Tahi:

Yeah, I mean, I suppose the best way of putting it for me is just don’t gaslight us. Like Richard said, it’s there, it happens, but don’t try and mask over it because that just makes it worse. Let’s just get to the core of it and try and come up with a solution. I don’t know what the solution is. I know every business is working towards a solution, but yeah, not sure it’s within my remit.

Ansonica Botha:

I think it is about the awareness, but we need to do it in a way that doesn’t sort of single out women or makes it weird. We have to do it in a way that it’s more natural and enabling the space for those conversations in a good way because you don’t sort of want to make things turn the other way and it is, I don’t know how you do that. So it is just about getting the message out there and being able to have a conversation.

Justin Fagents:

Listen, it’s certainly it’s being part of a conversation now. It’s an active conversation. It’s something that’s being discussed and I think it begins with a conversation in the first instance and having the awareness piece, all problems are first of all identified, then discussed, and then obviously the solutions need to be put in place and I think there’s a societal shift and policies within an organization and then at the individual level as well and being made aware and whether that’s through formal training that an organization would put through diversity, whether that’s really around cultural changes as new generations come through. I suppose in your career, have you seen a shift in really the mentality and the approach? Do you think it’s the same? Is it getting better? Is it potentially getting worse? What have you seen over the last few years in your career?

Nicky Tahi:

I think it’s definitely gotten better.

Ansonica Botha:

I have been… Yeah.

Nicky Tahi:

You go, Ansonica.

Ansonica Botha:

I think I’ve been really lucky that I have not been in situations aside from my one example where I had with someone made a stupid remark, but I didn’t actually have to work too much with them, so it didn’t bother me too much. I’ve been really lucky, I’ve been seen as part of the team as a person and just been part of the team. And I guess for me that’s the big thing is people are people and the more we can see people as people rather than whatever boxes we put them in, the better. So I think one of the shifts for me has been seeing more women come into the industry because I can remember being surprised when there’s another woman in the room where now it’s more often that there is at least another one or two women. So I think the more women is in the industry, the more it will normalize women in the industry.

Justin Fagents:

Absolutely. Nicky, you had something to add?

Nicky Tahi:

I think I was just going to highlight that it’s definitely changed. Like, if you think back to maybe our parents generation, I’m not going to give my age away, but they used to have to resign from their job once they got married, before they had kids. And then if we look at my generation when I had kids, it was still quite, and I suppose my daughter is 35, my son is 34. Back then it was just expected that the mums, even if she was working, mums did everything. Mum took care of everything outside work, we didn’t have a lot of flexibility.

There was really no wiggle room. You were quite nervous if you had to call in sick because your child was sick, whereas nowadays if you fast-forward to my grandkids, I still help my daughter now and then, you know, ferry my grandkids around and I’m lucky that I have that flexibility here at Downer where I can work from home and I can duck off and make up the time afterwards. And it’s just not even a… I still overthink it. I still get nervous asking the question or bringing the topic up because it’s just so ingrained.

Justin Fagents:

Sure.

Nicky Tahi:

But yeah, things have definitely improved and it’s really a non-issue where we are.

Justin Fagents:

Yeah, absolutely. And it’s interesting as well, and I think that in terms of diversification, where I mentioned the previous panel and we were talking about the future of construction and having students come from University of Melbourne and a great mix as we’re seeing with that next generation of women wanting to get into engineering construction. And certainly if you look at South America, there’s a very diverse mix of engineering students that are women with men. It’s not uncommon where we would see a bias towards more male-dominated industry for construction and engineering here in Australia, other parts of the world and countries in South America that’s not the case. It’s normal to have that blend. So I think we’ve got an opportunity as well in the education sectors and secondary and to promote these roles and to promote it being great career options and to really promote the opportunities.

And I think people think of construction and they’re not involved in it directly. You might be a woman going, I would never consider construction as a career opportunity in that particular industry because I don’t want to be out on site with a hard hit and a lollipop or hammering a sledgehammer where it’s very, of course as we know, it’s very different where the opportunities are. So I think again, there’s a great opportunity for universities and TAFEs and colleges as people are moving out of high school to look at what’s available to really diversify as well. I think there’s a great opportunity there. Maybe we can talk about some success stories and I am conscious of time, I’m enjoying the conversation, but time is flying by. We’re getting through it quickly.

In terms of maybe a specific project or initiative where you leverage technology, can you talk about how that may have led to a breakthrough or a real noticeable success in a project? Maybe it was struggling, maybe it was a new project that adopted technology and utilizing that to really great outcome. I don’t know, maybe, Richard, if you’ve got an example of something where you saw a change in technology being used that really that impacted a project that you might’ve been involved in.

Richard McCarthy:

Not to top of mind. So I’ll let Nicky or Ansonica, if you’ve got any at the moment and I’ll use the time to think a bit. Thanks, Justin. Sorry.

Justin Fagents:

Yeah, no problem. Nicky, Ansonica, do you have one?

Nicky Tahi:

I actually can’t think of it off the top of my head. I’m really sorry.

Justin Fagents:

You know what? That’s completely fine. I have asked the toughest question. I’ve actually found one that we haven’t-

Nicky Tahi:

The pressure is on.

Justin Fagents:

… been able to talk to for the last 10 minutes.

Richard McCarthy:

Yeah, the pressure is on.

Justin Fagents:

Yeah, no pressure at all. Well, I mean-

Richard McCarthy:

I’ll talk about it slightly differently, Justin, if you think about-

Justin Fagents:

Go ahead.

Richard McCarthy:

I think about a change in attitude that’s really, really done something, so maybe not technology driven, but one of the things we’ve sort of realized at Interflow, when I got here four years ago, 8% of our office-based workforce here in Melbourne was female. It was really, really low. And all that, most of those were in administrative roles. We are now up to 31% and climbing. And the difference that we’ve made was around that sort of notion about, hey, we’d always taken the approach of you must tick certain criteria or something like that, must have an engineering degree, must have x number of years of experience and everything like that.

And what we’ve actually realized is it’s actually about behaviors and attitudes. If we get someone with the right attitude, with the right behaviors who has an affinity for what we do, but may or may not know how to do it, we can teach you the skills. And I think where the technology comes in there is we can train people up very, very quickly, much more than we might’ve been able to 10 years ago where the training would’ve been very much on the job and taken years.

But we picked up a lovely lady called Sam who was a project manager across from Coles and had never done anything in engineering and construction before and yet we’ve been able to teach her the ins and outs of what we do as a business, but also then, and she is really thriving and succeeding here because we picked someone with the right attitudes and then able to leverage technology to help accelerate training for the specific technical parts that we’ve got here.

Justin Fagents:

Yeah, thanks, Richard. That’s awesome. That’s awesome. I think we’re good to explore a little bit around culture and community as well and maybe we could explore that together. Do you have any resources, communities, platforms where women in construction can connect and share knowledge and information and really connect on that level?

Nicky Tahi:

Are you talking about specific to our business or external?

Justin Fagents:

External within the industry and within the organization. If you’ve got an example of where Downer promotes it, that would be amazing, but also is there anything external that you can also reference where you know it might be industry events that you could join, it might be organizations, where you share.

Nicky Tahi:

So I know with Downer they do actually have two programs. One is called EmpowHER, which is a pretty good word play on empowering her and it’s actually a women’s network, so it’s about creating a supportive and inclusive environment for women across the organization. It helps them connect, voice their thoughts and share experiences and get some guidance as well as talking about their growth and career. And then we also have the Thrive program, which is Women’s Leadership Development Program, which is aligned to Downer’s strategy, helps lift gender diversity in the leadership roles as well as targeting development and empowering strong accountable leaders. So that’s really good. I haven’t had any involvement myself, but I think externally I haven’t had any kind of… I don’t really do a great deal of networking. I like to think I’m a bit of a high functioning introvert, so I refer back to the toe nail thing, but Downer has got some really good programs and they’re very popular. I’ve spoken with a few women that are participating, so yeah, they’re well received.

Justin Fagents:

Yeah, fantastic. Thanks for the share. Ansonica, do you have any examples from your side?

Ansonica Botha:

I don’t know of any specific programs or networking spaces. I do know there’s a couple of training providers in New Zealand that the host women focus development leadership type conferences and seminars and I’ve been to one of those, which is a space where you can meet people and build your networks that way. But yeah, there’s not a lot of these sort of things if we can’t [inaudible 00:51:37]. No.

Justin Fagents:

Listen, maybe there’s an opportunity for that to be elevated and certainly shout out to Pauline who’s on the call here has been very active in networking and getting out in the community within Western Australia for the construction industry and building her own network and she’s done that proactively off her own back and really has gone out there to promote herself and to connect really with women in construction and different organizations and does a lot of social media promotion around that. So I think that it’s starting and there’s a few sort of mavericks out there who are really trying to promote that and connect people together.

So I think that there’s a great opportunity for individuals like her and an organization of groups to be formed, because again, it’s where you are able to share information, share the knowledge, share the pain points, be able to connect and support each other, particularly as we’re looking to promote and grow the industry is probably going to be a really important thing at a community level, not just as an organization of what Downer’s doing, which is great. And is there any other way that organizations could be potentially more supportive? Is there any other examples that we haven’t explored yet or any other thoughts around that that organizations can do to assist with the diversity and the support?

Ansonica Botha:

I know we’re talking more about getting people into the industry, but I think something that my council’s done that has actually been really good is supporting women on the other end of the spectrum of the childbearing, like, getting to menopause and talking about the impact menopause has on women when they get to that stage and helping them navigate that because I didn’t realize the impact that could have on a woman’s performance at work and in her life. And that’s something we need to think about as well. That seems to be getting a bit of traction across the wider social acknowledgement, but that’s important as well.

Justin Fagents:

Wonderful, thanks, Ansonica. Listen, what we might do is there’s a couple of questions that we’ve got on the chat. We’ll answer those and then we’ll close for closing thoughts. So first question is how do we get more women interested in engineering as the numbers aren’t high? Anybody want to take that one on?

Ansonica Botha:

While I’m on the roll, I’ll keep going.

So I think about engineering a bit like a rugby team. There’s a space for a whole different range of body sizes, personalities, talents, all those sorts of things. So it is about getting the [inaudible 00:54:34] out of all the different roles and positions and opportunities there are within engineering because it’s such a awesome field to work in. The opportunities to contribute to society and do stuff for your community and just be involved is there’s so many things we can do. So just making people aware that it’s an option and you don’t have to be some sort of math genius or something to get involved.

Justin Fagents:

Well said, Ansonica. Did anybody else want to add to that?

Richard McCarthy:

You summed it up beautifully, Ansonica. There is so many opportunities. Yeah, that’s really good. Thank you.

Justin Fagents:

Next question and then we’ll do final thoughts. What do you do if the environment isn’t there for supporting you in your development? Does somebody want to take that one?

Nicky Tahi:

There’s so many different parts to that. I think it depends what your manager, you know, there’s just too many variables. It’s a very hard question to answer because is it the business that’s the problem? Is it the leader that’s the problem? What is their performance development program like? The goal setting and how is that all factored into this? Yeah, it’s a very broad question, but I’d like to think you could escalate that to a group, like a support group. Maybe it’s HR and then you go from there in terms of your women’s networking.

Justin Fagents:

Yeah. Well said, Nicky.

Richard McCarthy:

I think one of the things there is yeah, is it can be extreme as, hey, if the environment just is never going to be there, then maybe it’s the wrong organization, but it’s also looking at the… One of the great things about developing is you’re trying to build experience. Not all those experiences will be pleasant. I’ve had a number of unpleasant experiences in my career, so it’s that how do you take the silver lining out of this? Even if it is just a, “Hey, I don’t want to work with a foreign organization that does this.” That is an experience that will shape you as a leader later on. So there’s always something to be had even when it doesn’t feel great in the moment when it’s happening to you.

Nicky Tahi:

Yeah. And that’s really it, Richard. I didn’t really want to say it, but you’re going to get to a point where it’s kind of about self-preservation. It’s like, “How long do I keep trying to improve myself or better myself if I’m not getting the support from upstream?” At what point do you cut your losses and go, “You know what, lesson learnt.” Find another organization that does.

Richard McCarthy:

Yes, exactly. Good one.

Justin Fagents:

Thank you. Let’s do final thoughts. Nicky, you’re on the screen, maybe your final thoughts and we’ll then head to Ansonica and then Richard around one key piece of advice that you would give to women maybe considering a career in the construction or engineering sector.

Nicky Tahi:

I think just do it. There’s also nothing wrong with putting your boots on and your jeans and your hard hat and going out on site. Like, document controllers do have that exposure. We can get out there and we can kick the dirt, but you can also get back in the office in the aircon and enjoy both worlds. But I definitely recommend just reach out. Reach out on LinkedIn or whatever and connect with someone and take that first step.

Justin Fagents:

Thanks, Nicky. Ansonica.

Ansonica Botha:

My biggest piece of advice is to just be yourself. Don’t try and be what you think the other people around you would want you to be in that role. Just be yourself.

Justin Fagents:

Love it. Richard, bring us home.

Richard McCarthy:

Hey, I’ll say enjoy the journey. It is a journey. As you build those experiences, which is great and there is always more help. No one’s ever… When you stop to ask someone, “Hey, have you got some advice on how to do this?” It is amazing how many people will stop and help.

Justin Fagents:

Awesome. Thank you all. Listen a huge thank you to the panel. Thanks for taking the time. It was awesome. It was a really great conversation. I really enjoyed being able to be part of it. Listen, we have more webinars that are going to be coming up at ineight.com/webinars. Please do check them out. We’ll see you next time. Please do stay for the survey at the end. If you could just do a quick one, gives us feedback so that we can make sure that the next ones continue to improve. But until then, bye for now. Thanks, have a great rest of the day.

Richard McCarthy:

Fantastic. Thank you.